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Posts: 104 		  Quote Jack_Bauer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Connecticut Shooting
    Posted: Dec/24/2012 at 11:10am
Originally posted by richardvoyageur

Originally posted by elmers_cow

Of course... there is always someone or something to blame. Gun control... really?

On the same day, there was another guy in china who went into a school stabbing kids. To say gun control will help prevent cases like this is completely absurd! If a person who is sick enough and willing enough to take away innocent lives, no laws will ever be able to stop them. It is really sickening, but there is nothing concrete that can prevent these horrific incidents. Culture and society is all to blame-- blame for the lack of implementing certain morals can only be put on ourselves. Why only ourselves? Complete control over others is impossible, but what you do for yourself is completely in your own hand and how you influence others is also in your own hand.


Heres an article regarding the Chinese stabbing:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/world/asia/china-knife-attack/index.html

Do you know how many died in the knife attacks?  Zero.  The shooter on the other hand killed almost every single person he attacked.  No one is disputing the fact that there are crazy people out there, but if you give one crazy a full auto submachine gun(thankfully outlawed) and the other one a knife, who will claim more lives?  I don't think it's that hard to figure out.  

But no, no gun problem here.  

If anyone is interested, do some research into what Australia did with their gun control after a huge massacre, in 1996 I believe.  Their gun related deaths (including suicides and accidentals) are way down since then.  This is not rocket science.  Here is an example of their different weapon categories, which seem completely reasonable to me.

State laws govern the possession and use of firearms in Australia. These laws were largely aligned under the 1996 National Agreement on Firearms. Anyone wishing to possess or use a firearm must have a Firearms Licence and, with some exceptions, be over the age of 18. Owners must have secure storage for their firearms.

Before someone can buy a firearm, he or she must obtain a Permit To Acquire. The first permit has a mandatory 28-day delay before it is first issued. In some states (e.g., Queensland, Victoria, and New South Wales), this is waived for second and subsequent firearms of the same class. For each firearm a "Genuine Reason" must be given, relating to pest control, hunting, target shooting, or collecting. Self-defence is not accepted as a reason for issuing a license, even though it may be legal under certain circumstances to use a legally held firearm for self-defence.[2]

Each firearm in Australia must be registered to the owner by serial number. Some states allow an owner to store or borrow another person's registered firearm of the same category


Firearms in Australia are grouped into Categories with different levels of control. The categories are:

  • Category B: Centrefire rifles (not semi-automatic), muzzleloading firearms made after 1 January 1901. Apart from a "Genuine Reason", a "Genuine Need" must be demonstrated, including why a Category A firearm would not be suitable.
  • Category C: Semi-automatic rimfire rifles holding 10 or fewer rounds and pump-action or semi-automatic shotguns holding 5 or fewer rounds. Category C firearms are strongly restricted: only primary producers, occupational shooters, collectors and some clay target shooters can own functional Category C firearms.
  • Category D: Semi-automatic centrefire rifles, pump-action or semi-automatic shotguns holding more than 5 rounds. Functional Category D firearms are restricted to government agencies and a few occupational shooters. Collectors may own deactivated Category D firearms.
  • Category H: Handguns including air pistols and deactivated handguns. This class is available to target shooters. To be eligible for a Category H firearm, a target shooter must serve a probationary period of six months using club handguns, and a minimum number of matches yearly to retain each category of handgun.
Target shooters are limited to handguns of .38 or 9mm calibre or less and magazines may hold a maximum of 10 rounds. Participants in certain "approved" pistol competitions may acquire handguns up to .45", currently Single Action Shooting and Metallic Silhouette. IPSC shooting is approved for 9mm/.38/.357 handguns that meet the IPSC rules, but larger calibers are not approved for IPSC handgun shooting contests. Category H barrels must be at least 100mm (3.94") long for revolvers, and 120mm (4.72") for semi-automatic pistols unless the pistols are clearly ISSF target pistols: magazines are restricted to 10 rounds. Handguns held as part of a collection were exempted from these limits.

Richardvoyager, perhaps you should do some of your own research on what has happened with violent crime statistics in Australia, the UK and even South Africa.  All of whom have banned guns.  All of whom have seen violent crime rates EXPLODE.  Here, skim this article if you like, it offers some very well thought out and explained reasoning behind some of the points that most pro-gun people seem to fail to be able to explain coherently.  Many people seem to enjoy throwing out idealistic scenarios ("arm everyone", "ban guns" etc) without thinking about the actual logistical, sociological, and financial issues that arise from either extreme. 


Here is another good article, pay particular attention to the fact that "assault weapons" are involved in less than 3% of murders, yet that is what we are focusing all of the legislation on?  This one written by an admitted pro-gun leftist, which I thought was pretty interesting.  Not sure why we don't have more logical people in politics like this.
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Posts: 751 		  Quote diviesti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/24/2012 at 11:10am
I don't think dealers should be the ones to evaluate whether someone is sane enough to own a gun. There best interest is in selling the gun so most people will get a rather soft evaluation. I do agree with adding a mental health exam to the process of buying a gun though.

This is how I think they should change some of the gun laws:

First outlaw all assault style weapons, and high capacity magazines. Even for people who purchased them legally before the new laws, buy them back or do whatever it takes to remove them from civilian hands. 

Next make it illegal to buys guns from someone other than a dealer, I can go buy pretty much whatever the hell I want right now with a background check and it will be registered in the previous owners name. With that every gun you own will have to be registered, so if something arises cops know exactly what you have in the house.

Lastly include mental health exams and maybe check ups every few years to retain ownership of such guns. 

I think the line between the right to own a gun and a privilege to own a gun is what needs to change. If people can't prove they are sane enough to own a gun, have previous domestic violence cases, or whatever then they shouldn't have that right.
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Posts: 104 		  Quote Jack_Bauer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/24/2012 at 11:29am
Originally posted by diviesti

 
First outlaw all assault style weapons, and high capacity magazines. Even for people who purchased them legally before the new laws, buy them back or do whatever it takes to remove them from civilian hands. 



Please, in your own words, describe to us what an "assault style weapon" is.
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Posts: 751 		  Quote diviesti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/24/2012 at 11:36am
Originally posted by Jack_Bauer

Originally posted by diviesti

 
First outlaw all assault style weapons, and high capacity magazines. Even for people who purchased them legally before the new laws, buy them back or do whatever it takes to remove them from civilian hands. 



Please, in your own words, describe to us what an "assault style weapon" is.

Ar-15, ak47, G36, etc... Guns designed for use in military or police applications that are easily modified to make fully automatic and accept large magazines. 
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Posts: 104 		  Quote Jack_Bauer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/24/2012 at 11:44am
Originally posted by diviesti

Originally posted by Jack_Bauer

Originally posted by diviesti

 
First outlaw all assault style weapons, and high capacity magazines. Even for people who purchased them legally before the new laws, buy them back or do whatever it takes to remove them from civilian hands. 



Please, in your own words, describe to us what an "assault style weapon" is.

Ar-15, ak47, G36, etc... Guns designed for use in military or police applications that are easily modified to make fully automatic and accept large magazines. 

Under the previous(current in some states) assault weapons ban, this rifle is legal-




This one is not



I fail to see a big difference in the lethality of these two weapons.  The top one will take the same magazines as the bottom one.

What I'm asking is, how do you define an assault weapon?  If you ban the AR15, all the manufactures have to do is call it something else.  

Also, please cite last time a fully automatic weapon was used in a civilian shooting in the US.

What I'm getting at is that we are focusing on ideals and unrealistic solutions and not meaningful progress on the issue.  Other than than the Gunshow loophole, that was closed in my state a while ago, and I can't believe its still out there.  Registration and banning private sales would be fine from a political standpoint, but have practically zero affect on a criminal's ability to get a weapon.
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Posts: 104 		  Quote Jack_Bauer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/24/2012 at 11:52am
Just to play fair, my personal feelings on changes we should see:

-Close gun show loophole
-FFL transfers on all private sales (it won't change anything, but I recognize that the public is going to demand some kind of administrative change)
-Some sort of gun buyer card, similar to what they do in Chicago.  You have to get a permit in order to even buy a gun.  Throw some psych questions in the test and call it good.  This might also help with gun-show sales, if you have the card then perhaps you can still buy guns right at the show.

None of this is going to affect crime rates, the last AWB was an utter failure.  But the public is going to demand some changes in order to feel that they are victorious in stopping crime through legislation.  I predict crime statistics won't change at all in regards to mass shootings.

Also, mandatory confiscation is out.  The government can't pay its bills as it is, they definitely can't afford to buy back a couple trillion dollars in firearms.
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Posts: 751 		  Quote diviesti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/24/2012 at 12:00pm
Why do we need to own these guns. I'm not a person who wants guns banned, hell I own 4. An enfield .303, a dbl barrel 20 gauge, lever action 30-30, a 44 revolver,  a remington .270 and plan on buying a S&W .40 handgun with the giftcards I just got for Christmas. 

I do agree the definition of "assault style" weapon will be the big question mark of what happens, because its going to happen. I hunt, and the majority of my family and friends do the same. Everyone I talk to agrees, there is no legitimate purpose to own of those rifles regardless, even my brother in law who has a ak47 agrees. I doubt there was a lot of deaths this past year from explosives too, but that doesn't mean it should be legal to own a bomb.
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Posts: 104 		  Quote Jack_Bauer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/24/2012 at 12:15pm
So why are you ignoring the fact that 97% of crime involving weapons does not occur with assault rifles?  What is your plan for every other type of gun on the market?

If they exist only to commit murder, then why are they not used as such the majority of time? Does changing the magazine capacity from 30 to 10 suddenly completely change the nature of the weapon?  What about removing a barrel shroud? Truth is, an "assault weapon" is anything designed to fire a projectile.  

It sounds like you think hunting makes your choice in firearms justified.  The overwhelming majority of America has a supermarket within 10 minutes of their house.  Why is hunting justified?
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Posts: 104 		  Quote Jack_Bauer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/24/2012 at 12:17pm
Again, to be fair.  I own handguns and an AR.  I compete and shoot for leisure....kinda like hunting, except I don't need anywhere near the powerful cartridge that a hunting rifle has.  Since my shooting is for sport and pleasure, is my owning of a weapon justified?  

And divesti, just so you understand.  I'm not trying to imply you are wrong in a sense.  What I'm getting at is the issue is simply way larger and more complicated than "ban black rifles".  The majority that say that don't own them.  over 1.5 million of them are in circulation already.  Since a relative handful are being used to commit murder, in fact, they are used to commit murder at just about the lowest rate of every class of gun, I struggle with the notion that other weapons are somehow justified and they aren't.  They all shoot a projectile at whatever you aim it at.

Since 97% of murders occur with every other type of firearm, how do you propose we legislate those?  And yes, I'm including your weapons in that category. 
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Posts: 751 		  Quote diviesti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/24/2012 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by Jack_Bauer

So why are you ignoring the fact that 97% of crime involving weapons does not occur with assault rifles?  What is your plan for every other type of gun on the market?

If they exist only to commit murder, then why are they not used as such the majority of time? Does changing the magazine capacity from 30 to 10 suddenly completely change the nature of the weapon?  What about removing a barrel shroud? Truth is, an "assault weapon" is anything designed to fire a projectile.  

It sounds like you think hunting makes your choice in firearms justified.  The overwhelming majority of America has a supermarket within 10 minutes of their house.  Why is hunting justified?

Not here to argue, the reality if they banned all guns I would deal it. I would say the guy who killed all of those kids could have equally done it with a pistol and a 10 rd clip. I would say most shootings do involve handguns as well without looking up statistics. Thats why I feel the biggest thing they should do is make it so all guns have to be registered in every state, with a bigger punishment for having a gun that's not registered. If you get arrested for any violent crime, especially domestic violence you can longer own guns period. I wouldn't be surprised if they make the law on assault style weapons on barrel/gun length, there is no comparison on the short range damage you can inflict with a shorter semiauto rifle due to less recoil and easier aiming compared to any other weapon.
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Posts: 104 		  Quote Jack_Bauer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/24/2012 at 12:54pm
Sorry if it came across as arguing, I meant it only to further the discussion because I think most people react emotionally and think we live an ideal world where we can snap our fingers and make things happen.  Not my intention to single you out, so much as to have a running dialogue that others can learn from.

I am personally for mandatory registration.  I do feel that owning a firearm is a privilege and not a right.  The nice thing about registration is that we already have systems in place to track it via the federal database.   They simply are going to have to expand it to allow for five times more serial numbers in there, but again, logistically its the most realistic option.  In several states its a crime to not report a lost/stollen firearm.  Roll that one in there and suddenly you have weapons getting into the system.  The problem here is the black market and the fact that tens of millions won't be registered by their owners.  Much like making drugs illegal, its simply not going to change that.  But in theory, the long term affect is that it becomes harder to get one on the black market.  Well, probably not harder at all, just a lot more expensive.  Crazy people will still get it done though.

As far as magazine capacity etc, meh, I just don't see it affecting much.  It takes a second to reload, the V-Tech shooter carried 19 magazines.  there are probably billions of magazines out there, they are cheap as hell, and it takes another two minutes to modify the restricted ones back to full capacity anyway.  Just kind of a pointless legislation to me.  California doesn't even really pursue it anymore even though its on the books.  

Otherwise, "assault rifles" just look scary and its really easy for the media to play up on the hysteria.  I don't want to get shot with anything, but if you say I have the choice between a 5.56 point blank and a .308 from 200 yards, I'm still taking the 5.56.  They are more handy etc, but again, statistics bare out that they are one of the least used weapons in shootings.  I would be interested if there are any studies as to why though?  
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Posts: 751 		  Quote diviesti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/24/2012 at 1:18pm
Just didn't want to turn this into a you vs me. I agree with you on many of your ideas throughout this thread. IMO the reason these "assault riffles" are taking the fall because they were used in most recent mass shootings, and they are an easy target. Like you said, these scary guns. Lets be honest, the NRA and pro-gun politicians know they have to give something up to please the populace, and there is a chance in hell handguns will take the fall. Even though thats probably what should be addressed. 
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Posts: 104 		  Quote Jack_Bauer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/24/2012 at 1:21pm
No worries, and I agree, the politicians on both sides are basically grandstanding at this point.  Neither of which seemed to be concerned with actually addressing the problem, just trying to elevate their levels of power through mass hysteria.  

I find it interesting that in light of the public outcry, you can't find any rifles or ammunition in stock anywhere on the planet.  In a down economy, gun sales are at record levels.  As much as people are saying they want to get rid of them, they sure are buying a hell of a lot. 
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I'm here to fully support the ban of assault weapons. 
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Posts: 519 		  Quote AJD13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/24/2012 at 2:33pm
Originally posted by not-ewrx

I'm here to fully support the ban of assault weapons. 

Define an assault weapon and then you can talk... you more than likely have not read the thread here... 3% of all gun crimes happen with assault rifles... 97% of gun crimes happen with illegal weapons that were stolen, or smuggled. So what makes it right for everyone who does everything by the book to lose their "assault weapons?" You need to stop listening to the bullshit the mainstream media feeds you and go out and do your own research before interjecting a comment with no basis... why dont you people dig in and get to the facts. if CNN or fox news told you that it was legal to drink and drive would you do it? no... i didnt think so... youd go and research their claim before you did id think... so why cant you people do your research and get the facts straight before you make useless assumptions, because some reporter said it was the right thing to do? Im sick of it and its the reason why this country is falling into the shitter, you people have no idea what is happening you go and make uneducated decisions at the polls and its screwing the whole country.
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Posts: 1054 		  Quote richardvoyageur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/24/2012 at 4:47pm
This thread is a good example of what needs to happen more, and that's just pure discussion from both sides on what should be done to prevent massacres like this.  Putting everything out there and seeing where the public opinion lies will help.
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Posts: 1054 		  Quote richardvoyageur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/24/2012 at 4:55pm
Originally posted by Jack_Bauer

Originally posted by richardvoyageur

Originally posted by elmers_cow

Of course... there is always someone or something to blame. Gun control... really?

On the same day, there was another guy in china who went into a school stabbing kids. To say gun control will help prevent cases like this is completely absurd! If a person who is sick enough and willing enough to take away innocent lives, no laws will ever be able to stop them. It is really sickening, but there is nothing concrete that can prevent these horrific incidents. Culture and society is all to blame-- blame for the lack of implementing certain morals can only be put on ourselves. Why only ourselves? Complete control over others is impossible, but what you do for yourself is completely in your own hand and how you influence others is also in your own hand.


Heres an article regarding the Chinese stabbing:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/world/asia/china-knife-attack/index.html

Do you know how many died in the knife attacks?  Zero.  The shooter on the other hand killed almost every single person he attacked.  No one is disputing the fact that there are crazy people out there, but if you give one crazy a full auto submachine gun(thankfully outlawed) and the other one a knife, who will claim more lives?  I don't think it's that hard to figure out.  

But no, no gun problem here.  

If anyone is interested, do some research into what Australia did with their gun control after a huge massacre, in 1996 I believe.  Their gun related deaths (including suicides and accidentals) are way down since then.  This is not rocket science.  Here is an example of their different weapon categories, which seem completely reasonable to me.

State laws govern the possession and use of firearms in Australia. These laws were largely aligned under the 1996 National Agreement on Firearms. Anyone wishing to possess or use a firearm must have a Firearms Licence and, with some exceptions, be over the age of 18. Owners must have secure storage for their firearms.

Before someone can buy a firearm, he or she must obtain a Permit To Acquire. The first permit has a mandatory 28-day delay before it is first issued. In some states (e.g., Queensland, Victoria, and New South Wales), this is waived for second and subsequent firearms of the same class. For each firearm a "Genuine Reason" must be given, relating to pest control, hunting, target shooting, or collecting. Self-defence is not accepted as a reason for issuing a license, even though it may be legal under certain circumstances to use a legally held firearm for self-defence.[2]

Each firearm in Australia must be registered to the owner by serial number. Some states allow an owner to store or borrow another person's registered firearm of the same category


Firearms in Australia are grouped into Categories with different levels of control. The categories are:

  • Category B: Centrefire rifles (not semi-automatic), muzzleloading firearms made after 1 January 1901. Apart from a "Genuine Reason", a "Genuine Need" must be demonstrated, including why a Category A firearm would not be suitable.
  • Category C: Semi-automatic rimfire rifles holding 10 or fewer rounds and pump-action or semi-automatic shotguns holding 5 or fewer rounds. Category C firearms are strongly restricted: only primary producers, occupational shooters, collectors and some clay target shooters can own functional Category C firearms.
  • Category D: Semi-automatic centrefire rifles, pump-action or semi-automatic shotguns holding more than 5 rounds. Functional Category D firearms are restricted to government agencies and a few occupational shooters. Collectors may own deactivated Category D firearms.
  • Category H: Handguns including air pistols and deactivated handguns. This class is available to target shooters. To be eligible for a Category H firearm, a target shooter must serve a probationary period of six months using club handguns, and a minimum number of matches yearly to retain each category of handgun.
Target shooters are limited to handguns of .38 or 9mm calibre or less and magazines may hold a maximum of 10 rounds. Participants in certain "approved" pistol competitions may acquire handguns up to .45", currently Single Action Shooting and Metallic Silhouette. IPSC shooting is approved for 9mm/.38/.357 handguns that meet the IPSC rules, but larger calibers are not approved for IPSC handgun shooting contests. Category H barrels must be at least 100mm (3.94") long for revolvers, and 120mm (4.72") for semi-automatic pistols unless the pistols are clearly ISSF target pistols: magazines are restricted to 10 rounds. Handguns held as part of a collection were exempted from these limits.

Richardvoyager, perhaps you should do some of your own research on what has happened with violent crime statistics in Australia, the UK and even South Africa.  All of whom have banned guns.  All of whom have seen violent crime rates EXPLODE.  Here, skim this article if you like, it offers some very well thought out and explained reasoning behind some of the points that most pro-gun people seem to fail to be able to explain coherently.  Many people seem to enjoy throwing out idealistic scenarios ("arm everyone", "ban guns" etc) without thinking about the actual logistical, sociological, and financial issues that arise from either extreme. 


Here is another good article, pay particular attention to the fact that "assault weapons" are involved in less than 3% of murders, yet that is what we are focusing all of the legislation on?  This one written by an admitted pro-gun leftist, which I thought was pretty interesting.  Not sure why we don't have more logical people in politics like this.


Why would one believe a former gun store owner and concealed weapon instructor as having an unbiased and informative opinion?  If you have any evidence from non-biased sources, I would be happy to read them.  I'm not pretending I have all of the answers as I definitely don't, but the current course of action is not working, so something has to give (unless you're the NRA and status quo works well).
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Posts: 104 		  Quote Jack_Bauer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/24/2012 at 5:06pm
Here is a start.  Also, a secondary point of the article was not to discuss statistics, but rather a rational discussion of what some of the ideas proposed would actually entail.  Did you happen to read any of that?  Curious to hear what your reactions to that are, as well as your  reactions to the second article as well.  The comment "something has to give" seems to imply a goal of simply taking things away from gunowners as opposed to meaningful progress towards a reduction in crime.  The two are not always the same.
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Posts: 519 		  Quote AJD13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/24/2012 at 5:24pm
Richardvoyager. his bias does not have anything to do with it, all he is trying to do is convey his opinion to everyone. And the former gunshop owner and concealed weapons instructor are actually very good sources. they are educated on both ends of the topic, they need to be. they need to answer any and all questions asked by students and customers. They are actually one of the most educated sources out there.
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Once more an article by a reputed pro-gun activist.  The first line alone tells you where he's coming from
It is a common fantasy that gun bans make society safer.

Looking at the source tells me more than looking at the substance, although I did read the article.  But there is always a nagging feeling in the back of my mind when I look at the numbers or "proof" as they can be applied quite subjectively (certain years or types of crime, etc).

I noticed no one commented on my stats above in regards to Japan having a ridiculously low gun-related death rate compared to the US (30, adjusted for population vs. 12,000 for 2008).  Or the simple fact that the US has more guns per capita (by far) than any other country in the world and yet has the highest (by far) gun-related death rate in the world.  Think of the absolutely messed up countries around the world, from Africa to the middle east and the US has more guns per capita than all of them, by a mile.  

I think it's terrible that the NRA can throw bags of lobbying money at making this issue go away everytime there is a massacre.  They are immensely powerful, there is no doubt and I think it's tough for even balanced discussion to get through that wall.
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Posts: 2996 		  Quote ippollite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/25/2012 at 7:14pm
Im not entirely sure youre correct their chief about viloent crime "exploding". 

Lets use an actual source, like i dunno... the home office of the united kingdom crime statistics from the year 2002-2010: 

These are actually recorded crimes. 

Lets see this here explosion:


Well, what can we say? Violent crime has gone up (column Y) from 372,124 to the massive 401,743. A very small increase. Whats more, the statistics actually showed it peaked in 2005 and has been on a consistent downward trend since. Five years of downward numbers. Massive explosion. 

But that accounts for everything from murder to common assault, so you know...

Lets look at the murder stats... first column, hard to miss.

2002/03 = 1047. Numbers show a continual downward trend to 2009/10 figures which shows a total of 615 murders. This is a 40% drop. Massive explosion? How about attempted murder rates? 822 in 2002/3 to 528 in 2009/10. Again, continual drops. 

In fact, the only significant increase (2005) comes under the qualifier "less serious wounding". This runs the range of common assault (superficial wounding) to abh which covers injuries requiring medical treatment (though none the less superficial). 


One of the key things to take on board is that the use of the weapon (which can include a pool cue or a broken glass) whether or not it creates a superficial injury turns the act from ABH to GBH which carries a much more severe sentence. 

So again, aside the increase in common assault  and ABH (less serious wounding), as well as the increase in acts of "public harassment, causing fear and distress" (asshole neighbors, stalking and general harassment - no actual physical violence)), the stats show a significant drop in the most violent crimes (gbh to murder). What youre seeing is more anti social behavior and friday/saturday night dust ups down the pubs. Actual crime, deliberate crime has dropped throughout the uk, has been on a continual downward trend. But dont let actual government statistics and data on crime put you off your argument. Britain is obviously going through some kind of crime frenzy at the moment!  
If only we had guns around to sort it all out. 

ETA: Jesus wept, i went to look at the "statistics" he used to see where he derived this insane idea. And whaddayaknow... to quote the passage:

So then we’ve got England, where they reacted swiftly after a mass shooting, banned and confiscated guns, and their violent crime has since skyrocketed. Their stats are far worse than Australia, and they are now one of the more dangerous countries to live in the EU. Once again, cursory Google search will show articles with the stats, and other articles saying that those rises like totally have nothing to do with regular folks no longer being able to defend themselves… Sensing a trend yet?

No data, no information, no source... a 'cursory google search'. Not even an attempt to source his claims. This is utterly pathetic. 
m00m
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Posts: 102 		  Quote bweston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/27/2012 at 12:58am
Richardvoyageur, I don't see how you read the article and feel his opinion is biased. He simply put the numbers out there for everyone to see. He described the media's definition of "assault weapon" and how each description adds nothing to the actual mechanics of any gun. What our politicians have deemed an assault weapon due to barrel shrouds, collapsable stock, attachment rails, etc. don't affect how the gun fires. In an ideal situation law enforcement are 5 minutes away. So a few more seconds to change out a 10 round mag rather than a 30 round mag doesn't change the situation any.
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We need to be like the Swiz it sounds like. The lowest crime rate in the world, so low they don't even include gun related things into their stats. The reason why? They all have and are trained in gun use by law.
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I agree fully.
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Posts: 751 		  Quote diviesti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/27/2012 at 10:34am
The large magazine still makes a big difference. Lets say he only had 10 rd clips, compared to the 30. There was multiple shots to get into the building as well as in the hallways where he gunned down staff members before entering the classrooms. That would have been at least one reload probably two, in such a chaotic moment I doubt he was cool and calm and could reload the gun in just a few seconds. This would have bought the staff a little bit more time to protect the kids, not to mention once he ran out of bullets someone could have attempted to tackle him or whatever while hes reloading. 

The million dollar question is how are they going to remove these large capacity magazines from the market, there has got to be millions of them.
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I have shot an AR-15 before and loved it. I just dont think i would ever spend over a grand on a gun. But besides fun why would you buy one? im just would like to understand other reasons. That being said i spend a lot of money on snowboarding and im sure there are people out there that are wondering why i would do the same thing. 
Also yesterday i let a drunk guy into my house because he was lost and was freezing. he was in my place for an hour warming up and waiting for a cab. it was really tense though. he thought we let him in so we could kill him and both my roommate and i were on edge the whole time wondering if he had a weapon. sad state of the world when we get tricked into thinking that everyone out there is physco and trying to kill or steal from you.  
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Posts: 102 		  Quote bweston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/28/2012 at 8:46am
Personally, I use my AR for hunting and recreational shooting. It is a fun gun to shoot. We have a lot of farm land and the wild hogs tear it up. Four or five of us will go out and shoot as many as possible. When you have a group of 50 or more it is nice to have the AR. I also have a mini 14 that I previously used, works the same.
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Posts: 102 		  Quote bweston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/28/2012 at 8:49am
Diviesti, how would more time allow protection for the kids. I'm not trying to be argumentative just curious of your perspective. I don't believe hiding under desks or closets are protection against a firearm. If it was the other side of the school and you are evacuating the children, how much further can they get in a couple seconds?
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Posts: 1827 		  Quote MTpow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/28/2012 at 9:01am
Originally posted by diviesti

The large magazine still makes a big difference. Lets say he only had 10 rd clips, compared to the 30. There was multiple shots to get into the building as well as in the hallways where he gunned down staff members before entering the classrooms. That would have been at least one reload probably two, in such a chaotic moment I doubt he was cool and calm and could reload the gun in just a few seconds. This would have bought the staff a little bit more time to protect the kids, not to mention once he ran out of bullets someone could have attempted to tackle him or whatever while hes reloading. 

The million dollar question is how are they going to remove these large capacity magazines from the market, there has got to be millions of them.


reloading anything with a clip shouldn't take more than a couple seconds.... regardless of clip size... just saying...
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Posts: 751 		  Quote diviesti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/28/2012 at 9:27am
Originally posted by bweston

Diviesti, how would more time allow protection for the kids. I'm not trying to be argumentative just curious of your perspective. I don't believe hiding under desks or closets are protection against a firearm. If it was the other side of the school and you are evacuating the children, how much further can they get in a couple seconds?
 
 
Still don't believe theres anyway he could reload his gun in less than 8 seconds from the time the last bullet left the chamber to the time it takes to pull a clip out of whatever he was using to hold them. Proffesional target shooters have it down to 2-3 seconds in a controlled enviornment and they do it for a living. He didnt have near that much experience and I doubt he was calm and could just take it out and put one in like he was at a picnic. 
 
Now the school shooting is obviously a unique experience because the kids couldnt really defend themselves, but most mass shootings have taken place where the victims are old enough to run, to attack the shooter while he reloads or whatever. Regardless more time to hide, lock the doors, call the police, defend themselves while hes reloading is better than less time.
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Posts: 751 		  Quote diviesti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/28/2012 at 9:28am
Originally posted by MTpow

Originally posted by diviesti

The large magazine still makes a big difference. Lets say he only had 10 rd clips, compared to the 30. There was multiple shots to get into the building as well as in the hallways where he gunned down staff members before entering the classrooms. That would have been at least one reload probably two, in such a chaotic moment I doubt he was cool and calm and could reload the gun in just a few seconds. This would have bought the staff a little bit more time to protect the kids, not to mention once he ran out of bullets someone could have attempted to tackle him or whatever while hes reloading. 

The million dollar question is how are they going to remove these large capacity magazines from the market, there has got to be millions of them.


reloading anything with a clip shouldn't take more than a couple seconds.... regardless of clip size... just saying...
 
 
it does, just sayin.....
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Just because our constitution grants us the right to bear arms, does that mean we are entitles to all types of guns? I'm glad owners like AJD13 are responsible with their firearms. I am also responsible with mine and know where they are at all times. However, I also know of many shooters who are less responsible. Often, after hunting trips or the range, guns and shells are left in cars, out on garage or basement tables to be cleaned, in the houses, etc. Not everyone chooses to put away their toys after playing. Since this irresponsibility probably won't change in many people, and stolen guns continue to account for the majority of gun-related crimes, should we restrict certain types of firearms to decrease the chance that these will be used against lawful citizens? Is 'being really fun to shoot' (which they are) enough reason to allow the average joe access to assault weapons? I don't know. What I do know is this- the average person is a farking idiot. This means that half of the population is dumber than that guy. Should we allow more high power, rapid fire, high round guns in the hands of irresponsible people? Training would help, but people tend to fall back into old patterns. It's concerning to say the least.
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the guns reload much faster in video games LOL
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Originally posted by lightning80

the guns reload much faster in video games LOL
You also get multiple lives.
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Posts: 102 		  Quote bweston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/29/2012 at 12:22am
The VT shooter had multiple ten round magazines and I didn't see anyone charging him while he was reloading. The time it takes to reload is minimal, whether it be 2-3 seconds or 8. Cops won't arrive on the scene any faster and the average person won't try and attack the shooter in the couple seconds they have between reloads. Human instict is to hide or run not wait for a 5 second window to attack the person. To be clear this is my personal opinion and we all have one although many will differ, but I don't agree with what our media and Govt. are trying to classify as assault weapons. I have a pellet gun that resembles an "assault weapon" and I posted a picture of it on facebook and the majority of the responses were that it was an assault weapon and needed to be banned. A ban is being put into place on the aesthetics of a gun not its functionality. Mass shootings aren't as common as people believe. Same as plane crashes, they are rare but they stick in your head for a long time. I don't believe anyone needs a AR 15 but we also don't need cars that go 100+ mph when the max speed limit is 75. The ban the Govt. is trying to put into place would affect 80% and it would only be a starting point to pretty much put every gun into the assault class to the point they would take all of our guns.
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Posts: 891 		  Quote Lux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/29/2012 at 8:17am
Originally posted by julius77

Originally posted by lightning80

the guns reload much faster in video games LOL
You also get multiple lives.
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Posts: 751 		  Quote diviesti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/29/2012 at 9:35am
Originally posted by bweston

The VT shooter had multiple ten round magazines and I didn't see anyone charging him while he was reloading. The time it takes to reload is minimal, whether it be 2-3 seconds or 8. Cops won't arrive on the scene any faster and the average person won't try and attack the shooter in the couple seconds they have between reloads. Human instict is to hide or run not wait for a 5 second window to attack the person.  

I'm not just saying it gives people an opportunity to attack the shooter while they reload, people can also run and hide. If someone was shooting up a building I was in, I would rather him have 10 rd magazines, but I guess thats just me.
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Posts: 102 		  Quote bweston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/30/2012 at 5:35pm
I can see your point, but to the extent of banning guns or the higher round mags, not too sure.
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^People need to assign blame somewhere. I think assault rifles and high round mags are going to go away for a bit.
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This shooting was to push the gun control law. But it is one of the most stupid ways to do that. R.I.P all those kids.
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Originally posted by GoldDragon

This shooting was to push the gun control law. But it is one of the most stupid ways to do that. R.I.P all those kids.

what the hell are you talking about? thats bull


Originally posted by julius77

^People need to assign blame somewhere. I think assault rifles and high round mags are going to go away for a bit.

they just need to be stricter with them. They don't need to go away. What's so bad about limiting the usage of them. Why do people need them?

Having them just because you can or want to is fine, as long as you lock them up. We need to figure something out about that.
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i agree with julius about people being irresponsible gun owners. accidental gun deaths hover around 600 per year. 
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demotivational poster AMERICA
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaxOZ-fbe6M
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Read this yesterday, it's an excellent take on both sides of the gun-control issue, with quite a few facts and good points to back it up.


Personally, as Sam Harris states in the article, I feel like a huge part of this issue is money and funding.  If police officers were paid $100k/year, think how many would be lining up to join the service, allowing increased protection in schools, malls, theaters, etc, granted the quality of training remained high.  The only way to effectively engage an attacker with guns or even knives is using a gun.  Banning them altogether is unrealistic.  Deterring attacks by increasing emphasis on those that can protect and are sworn and capable to do so will help with the problem.
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ANOTHER SHOOTING! We're #1! we're #1. 5th shooting on school campus in 2013 just happened in texas.
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/22/lone-star-college-shooting_n_2527806.html here is that report on that last one, since it hasn't been getting much coverage
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